Submitted by Rick on Tue, 09/09/2008 - 2:15pm
Posted in
I broke down (no surprise there) and am in the midst of downloading the WAR Beta. Anybody else going to try it out? I'll post my thoughts once I've gotten a look at the game.
I'll probably be playing a High Elf or Human of some flavor, most likely Shadow Warrior, Archmage, or Bright Wizard (or all three). House Ancora has a small presence on the Estalia server, so I'll be playing there.
MORTHANOS Sorcerer 20 Argonesson Server, The Avatars
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Healers
The healers in War appear to be some of the best designed since Shadowbane. Archmages are ranged DPSers who deal damage to build up healing capability. Dwarf Rune Priests are similar, but are more focused on buffing. IMO, the most interesting of all are the Warrior Priests who generate AOE healing by fighting and have to build their healing pool by front-line fighting. All seem to be among the most potent characters in the game. All also require a splitting of concentration between DPS (and thus offensive targeting) and healing (thus defensive targeting.) Since they are usually targeted first, they also need to heal themselves frequently. All also have abilities that let them turn Action Points (normally used to attack) into the points used to heal, but this essentially makes them one dimensional and they lose overall effectiveness.
Very cool, but very demanding player skill-wise. I think most of the lack of healers has more to do with their shabby treatment in other MMOs than it does with any flaw in War's design, but long term the greater skill required to be effective will likely drive many away from the classes.
From my short experience with the Goblin Shaman class, they are just as tough, but much less restricted in that they don't have to fight to heal effectively and can switch back and forth at will without the tactical considerations that limit the Order healers. Again, I think this will lead to a higher population of healers among destruction, and the straight forward style of play has often led to them leading the field in healing by huge margins in my limited RvR experience. I like the design consideration that make the Order healers so interesting, but I wonder about the impact of those decisions of the overall healer population.
Ariande Bard 20 • Nightfall Ranger 19
The Avatars, Argonessen Server
Tank Rewards
Actually, I'm not certain that Tanks and Healers are not already being adequately rewarded. I said they SEEM not to be, and that seems to be the general perception of the populace. Regardless of what we choose as a group, it is the perception of the Tanks and Healers that will impact the make-up of the rest of the server, not their actual capability. One of the few things that Rick and I seem to agree on is that the role of Tanks and Healers is quite complex, from a player perspective. IMO, Non-DPS players need to exercise more skills, are forced to split their concentration more, and are more hindered by the lag and targeting problems. From past experience, over time, MMO populations will drift toward whatever class creates the greatest effect with the least skill requirement, and I expect to see that here. We're fortunate to have access to a guild that is Healer/Tank heavy to play with. I'm not convinced, however, that a well balanced group is tougher than an all DPS group, once coordination of fire becomes routine. We'll see.
One other thing in Mythic's corner here is that players like to try "new" classes. Since the Empire and Dark Elf Tanks will be introduced later, there will likely be a healthy influx of Tanks at that time, though it may be only transitory.
At least the guard issue
At least the guard issue will be easy to fix. It is trivial to identify where somebody is and start a counter so tanks could be easily rewarded for guarding. They should also be rewarded for damage soak and healers for well healing. A significant boost in reward for healing would probable do a lot to refocus negligent half and half classes. That is the type of stuff that comes after technical issues, like lag, get addressed so it might be a bit yet.
A Slightly Different Perspective
The factual information Mike detailed is spot on, however I would disagree with the subjective evaluation. The game, for me, has lagged from the beginning just as it does now. The most annoying bug for me was when I would root monsters in melee with me and they would appear to "stick" to me when I moved until the root broke, then they would teleport to their actual position. The could not attack me, so the game counted them as in the correct place in every way except visually. That bug has been fixed with the most recent patch. Compared to any other MMO I've played, it is almost flawless. None of the bugs is game-breaking and most aren't even that annoying.
The reward of renown and experience in Scenarios (think WoW battlegrounds, only much better) and World RvR (outdoor areas where you become flagged for PvP) is a bit mysterious. There does, at first glance, appear to be some bias in favor of those who do damage. However, I'm not certain this is as true as it first appears. I have done almost twice as much damage in some instances and recieved less experience and especially less renown than healers and tanks. Capturing battlefield objectives, healing, kills, death blows, and other factors all count toward these rewards. I think where the deficiency in the system lies is not so much in how damage is rewarded, but how passive actions which lead to the win are accounted for. I have held the flag in one instance and been responsible for keeping the other side from capturing it, while other players pointlessly battle all over the map. Much of those specific battles I stood by, just watching the flag. I could easily have left the flag and topped the damage charts (not bragging, I was top of the Tier level-wise and I'm playing the heaviest hitter in the game, the Bright Wizard), but we would have lost the game, because the flag would have been captured repeatedly (nobody else was watching it). Also, there is no reward for leadership, which is the single biggest factor in a win versus a loss between evernly matched teams. This does affect tanks the most, because their contribution is the most passive: soaking up damage from their healers and dps'ers, snaring, taunting, and other things which are hard to measure. However, I have led the battle in damage, experience, renown, death blows, and kills with a Swordmaster, and performed very well in many battles. I've also done poorly. A lot of it depends on how the battle goes and the choices your opponents make. In one fight, I was fighting from the gun until the whistle blew, and never died (great healing, Mel), and in others I've been running back from my spawn point half the battle and ended up on the bottom of the charts.
In a perfect fight, the dps'ers will probably out-perform the tanks. The healers can hold their own, if they are in the thick of things and don't die. Playing the tank is the most challenging role in the game, and in my opinion, the most vital. Taunting, protecting healers, guarding nodes, snaring the right targets, and pouring on the damage at the critical moments takes practice, quick reflexes, and timing. If you are playing against an organized, intelligent opponent and your side is not cooperating, you will be taking a dirt-nap.
The biggest problem with the game that I've seen is a result of it's great strength. The designers have created a game which by its very design rewards players who work together. It depends upon it. If there are too many players on one side or the other, you get long queues for the Scenarios. If there are too few players on the server, long queues. Too many players on the server, long queues. Our server seems to have a moderate amount of players which means some waiting for some queues, some problems finding enough players to do public quests (but not always, it really depends) and not a lot of competition for quest items/kills. The problems pale in comparison to any other game I've played, including WoW. (As I've stated before, DDO is not included in my estimation as I don't think of it as massively multi-player).
Their are two large problems for the Order side. First, the most popular RvR zones appear to be in the Empire. The Empire does not have a tank class. Hence, you often find yourself in RvR battles with no tanks, while the Chaos side has tons of them. Second, the most popular healer on the Order side seems to be the Empire healer, the Warrior Priest. Players of this class seem to greatly favor the Warrior part and forget the Healer part, except when healing themselves. One of the great flaws in every game of this type ever made is every class can do some damage, but not every class can heal, which forces the healing classes to not be allowed to do damage since other classes who can't heal do it so much better. When you get into an RvR battle with half-way decent opponents, they will target your healers first. With no tanks (or tanks intent on "just let me finish this guy off before I keep that melee dps from eviscerating you) the losses are horrible. Add to that a lack of general strategy and cooperation and you can quickly despair. In those battles where 4 or 5 of us go in with a balanced group and tell the other players what we're doing we generally win, and sometimes quite convincingly. Sometimes our opponents are just as balanced and organized and those are the best Scenarios, win or lose.
For the record, I will tell you what the two single biggest factors are in who gets the most experience and renown. The first is your level, and the second is how much you are involved in the battle. If you are maximum level for the Scenario, you will get more experience. Minimum level and your experience will be much less. Tanks can, and often do compete quite nicely. But since tanks are the best to guard nodes, they often are idle during portions of the battle, which is what hurts their rewards. Dps'ers (especially selfish ones who are trying to top the charts rather than win the Scenarios) are often fighting throughout. Everybody earns enough renown, experience, and other rewards to have an outstanding time. If other classes getting more rewards than you ruins a game that is a blast to play, I don't know what to tell you. I don't expect perfection, just fun and WaR is really fun.
WAR is not perfect. But it is easily the best launch of an MMO ever, nothing else even comes close. I think it's the best game, but it is not going to be for everyone. For a group that pressures those who play with it to only play when and how the group wants, it's going to cause tension. There's just too much to do and people have varying habits, predilections, and preferences. I wish everybody liked the game as much as I do and I look forward to playing with anybody who wants to give it a try. In all honesty, though, it might be best to stick with DDO if you expect this particular game to be fun just playing all together one night a week. The best part of this game is in being part of a large, active guild, not limiting game play to 6 or 7 of us. There will be massive, server-wide battles going on in the future. The truth is, the game doesn't even really start until everybody is 40th level. We won't really know about game balance until then, or at least until a good number of people are in Tier 4, with the majority of their abilities.
War Update
While I still think this is a good RvR game, some of the warts are starting to show. The lag has gotten a bit worse and mini-spikes plague both PvP and PvE, causing players and MOBs to suddently teleport and their health bar to update erratically. Not enough to make the game unplayable, but enough to make targeting and timing of moves a bit problematic. It does get worse in RvR with multiple toons, but the scaling is much better than in most other MMOs. Hopefully they'll get things optimized in the next few months and this will smooth out, but so far it's a bit worse than at launch.
They are definitely going to have to provide some sort of incentive to players to run the less popular battle grounds and to play the less popular classes. Khaine's Embrace, the Tier 1 Elf RvR mission takes hours to get into, while the Empire-Chaos mission takes minutes. They've smartly made it so you can queue for all three Tier appropriate RvR missions at once (an excellent change), but it's not good to have everyone in a single mission. Many of the public quests are similarly bereft of players.
As far as classes go, the game is predictably filled with DPSers of all types, with Tanks and Healers being far too rare. The classes still seem to be pretty well designed, but the DPSers are much easier to play effectively and seem to have an easier time meeting the success standards of the missions. Whether that's true or not, the lack of healers and tanks make the RvR clashes much more like modern infantry combat... if they can see you, you die. A really good guild with voice communication who sticks together and concentrates fire will absolutely own the battle field. The 4-5 of us playing are not sufficient to that, but an 8 person team would be hard to beat, even by a dozen of the poorly cooperating enemy.
Lvl 8 Checkpoint
I just hit Lvl 8 last night, after about 8 hours of mostly inefficient play. For the most part, my previous observations stand. The UI is mostly excellent, the quest system and layout is best-of-breed, though the content is uninspired, the world is gorgeous, and the classes are too linear at low level. The constant low level lag is fairly annoying and needs to be fixed, but the seeming trade-off is little drop in framerate or server performance when lots of players gather. All that said, the game is pretty fun.
I've played in three different public quests now, and the idea and execution of these remain the game's best innovation. Anything that gets me thinking of other players as a benefit rather than an annoyance is a welcome addition to MMOs. Further, the way individual quests lead into and parallel public quests is well thought out and binds the public quests more strongly to the natural course of leveling. The default of having groups open to be joined by anyone in a zone is a surprisingly good move, IMO. If you're antisocial and proud of it, you can just close any group you make. having the default as open, however, encourages impromptu grouping and once again makes for a stronger player community.
RvR remains enticing, but I've been unable to get into the first High/Dark Elf RvR scenario again since my first attempt. It seems like no one is doing this quest (at least), which is really too bad. Last night we trekked to the open RvR zone and took some keeps for Order, but only two Destruction players made an appearance and their deaths didn't even whet my appetite for PvP. Certainly the mechanisms for taking strategic sites on the battleground is very well thought out, with time limits for retaking a site that has been taken and sufficiently defended by the other side. Level limits in these areas also seem to be well considered, at least in the low level game.
I would say the PvE seems a bit easy for our group (a Tank, a ranged DPS, and two Healer-DPS hybrids), but that may just be a factor of us being slow at moving into higher level areas. It's not like AoC though, where grouping below 40th was fairly useless. Here it makes everything more fun.
Overall, I like the game and its potential. I just hope the RvR action picks up or they're goign to have a hard time succeeding. This is not like DAoC, where PvP had to wiat for higher levels. You can get right into it in WAR. It's just not clear that the player base is aware of that, or that they care. Odd for a nominally PvP based game, especially one where you can easily level purely through PvP/RvR.
As I mentioned on the phone,
As I mentioned on the phone, I don't believe tanks can block attacks with clipping, just movement. Consider how ineffective it would make ranged attackers if all you had to do was put warriors in front. It would be like a football game, with a line of scrimmage. However, tanks still form a wall of defense through the use of positioning, abilities, and tactics. If their healers are far enough back to keep them healed, but be out of range of ranged attacks, it forces the attackers to move through the tanks or go around. Also, tanks get other abilities that more than offset the lack of ranged clipping.
Jason has been playing a Dwarven tank and can probably provide better information. The biggest problem the Empire has in winning Scenarios is a lack of tanks (the Empire doesn't have one currently). It makes a big difference, believe me, but your mindset has to be to learn to utilize the skills you have, not the mechanics you don't.
Does that mean everything is balanced and one class or another isn't gimped in the end game? Of course not--I'm nowhere near there yet. But up to 11th level (the top of the tier one Scenarios), things seem very playable. As a Caster, I can handle any tank who just keeps mindlessly trying to reach me to kill me. But those who head for cover when they can't get to me, circle around, wait until I'm engaged with other enemies, and so on, can be a real problem for me.
It's fun guys, really good fun. Even when you lose.
Tanks
So, what is the function of Tanks in RvR? Those of you who have played a little bit... can they block ranged attackers from hitting their healers (with clipping?) Rick mentioned that they can absorb damage from some group members. What are the limitations on that? Does it have a visible effect? The existence of that ability suggests that clipping does not affect ranged targeting. If true, it's unfortunate because it still makes it very easy for enemy ranged attackers to focus fire on the healers and or mages. If two tanks are protecting a target, do they both take the full damage the target takes, or do they split it?
Huh
I find it pretty odd that acenet would have a specific black list on from that address, very odd. I think they do use spam assassin or something. A better way IMHO to do gmail is to setup gmail for your domain (free and you still use acenet for the web hosting stuff) then the mail all goes directly through the gmail for your domain account (exactly like gmail but for @whatever.com) instead of via a forward. I have a couple domains I run a couple domains this way and it works great, I get all the gmail mail and calendaring stuff with some sudo proprietary controls for account relationships(family calendars domain start pages for tools blah blah nobody cares but me :p ). If you still want only one mail page open (I like tabs myself) you can then have your normal gmail account retrieve it.
Yea!!!
Well, at least you figured it out! I look forward to playing with you soon.
WH Keys from D2D
I finally, FINALLY got my key! Apparently acenet.com was screening out donotreply@direct2drive.com BEFORE relaying to GMail, so the mail never got to me AND it didn't appear in my SPAM folder. Worse, all the OTHER mail went through fine, even donotreply@ign.com, so no idea how this happened. Moral, use a direct e-mail address for direct2drive. The worst part of all this, it wasn't their fault at all, so I missed all that time AND end up eating crow.
Mike, I am sorry to hear
Mike,
I am sorry to hear that you are still having issues. When you do get in to play, I have a High Elf Shadow Warrior that is almost 8th and a High Elf Archmage that I have yet to play. I would be happy to start fresh with you sometime this evening if you would like.
Brokedown Too
Well, I broke down and bought the game, largely due to curiosity about some of the game mechanics and the thought that we *might* actually be able to have the whole guild playing simultaneously without screwing our XP or quest progressions. Not that it's mattered...
I bought the game on Direct2Drive, which I've use without issue numerous times previously, but this time they didn't send my account keys. Their technical service took more than 24 hours to answer, then claimed the problem was solved and took no action. Now I've had to dispute the purchase with Paypal. Pretty dismal response from a company I've recommended in the past. Anyway, no when I'll be in.
Once I do get in, I'll be starting an Elven Sword Dancer and a Human Warrior-Priest.
WoW! - Not
Nice testimonial. Almost everything said there sounded good... almost good enough to try. Please keep us updated with how the game goes, since it sounds like few of us plan to buy the game.
The RvR sounds like it might actually give DAOC a run for its money. Clipping, tanking in PvP, low levels of CC, resists mitigating spell damage (rather than % fail), et. al. sound great. The AP system would sound good if not for Rick's reported slowness. If he found it slow, I'd likely find it mind numbing, giving my lack of patience.
Good Information
I have been meaning to post a bit more information, but been far too lazy. This article sums up some very nice things about the game compared to WoW:
thewarjournal.com/2008/08/13-reasons-why-war-rvr-is-better-than-wow-pvp/
Second Glance
Hmmmm.... I might have been a bit hasty...
I have now played a character to third level. Once I figured out how the UI works, things improved greatly. Combat is VERY Wow-like, not a plus. This is NOT a first-person shooter type game where targeting and twitch skills rule the day, at least not at low level when you have few abilities.
The initial quests are utterly standard fare, kill so many of this and take this message to them, etc. However, not too far into the progression, I received a quest to help defend an important location. I accepted and then entered a queue, much like the battlegrounds in WoW, except you don't have to go to a distant Battlemaster to join, you do it anytime and anywhere you want, from your UI. The Battle lasted about 10 or 15 minutes and wasn't anything special, but kind of fun. My side got their butts handed to them, but I still got credit for the quest. I was returned to the location I left when I entered the Battle (not where I hit the button to join, there was a delay while enough players joined and I was able to keep questing during the delay).
If Mythic is targetting WoW players, (and if you don't think they are, talk to me later about some choice Florida real estate you simply MUST have) they may have something here. I suspect their combat model is a rock/paper/scissors type of thing and not very interesting at low level, but looking over the ability lists at the trainer, there is some potential for tactics. Perhaps the second biggest plus in the game is the Warhammer/tabletop feel of the game. If you ever wanted to play as a piece in a Warhammer Campaign, you might want to give it a try.
The biggest plus is the UI and I haven't taken the time to understand all the features. It takes a bit to understand how things work, but once you do, managing your quests, figuring out where to go next, and navigating the world becomes very easy, something I like. I would say it's better than WoW's.
No clipping, Griffon, we're all ghosts. Ugh.
This might be a fun game to play with a good, active guild, but for small weekly game play, I really don't think it will be a good choice. I don't know if there are any instanced dungeon crawls, or if the focus is totally on levelling up to take part in RvR combat.
I've seen enough pluses to say you might want to check it out. I don't advocate it as a game for the Avatars. For those who want to play, hooking up with House Ancora or another group might be the way to go. A strong, large guild will have fun and apparently Mythic has designed some innovative features to make guilds fun, interesting, and worth maintaining.
Technically, the game is solid as a rock. I have not had any lag, glitches, or other problems. The gameplay is polished, on par with Wow several weeks (months?) after it was released. Like AoC, who knows if that extends to the higher levels of play?
I played a Shadow Warrior, basically an Archer. At first level you have two abilities, a long, slow aimed bow shot and a quicker sword slash. Target, boooowwwwwshhhoooottttt, wait, slash, slash, loot, rinse and repeat. Boooorrrrinnnng. At second level I got an instant bow shot. Not much more interesting, replace one of the slashes with the new bow attack. At third level I got another bow shot, almost as slow-casting as the aimed shot, which does moderate damage and debuffs the targets armor and chance to block for 10 seconds. You start to get the idea. I noted a snaring shot in the list. Also, as a Shadow Warrior, there are three paths to take, each with its own stance. Some abilities, like the Debuff Shot, require the character to be in a particular stance to use.
The above are Core Abilities, and all characters can get all of them, as far as I can tell at this point. However, starting at 11th level, characters earn Mastery Points which they can spend on abilities which require a specific stance, which is where individual customization of characters occurs. I don't know how varied classes will be. Other classes don't necessarily have stances, but there is some kind of similar mechanic for all of them.
I don't care enough about crafting to study it, but it is much more limited in WAR than WoW from what I've seen/read. You can, however, dye your armor (at least some of it), which will make the fashion mavens among us happy.
You might want to take the time to download the Beta (unless you are defending morally outraged sensibilities) and see what you think. The game will become a huge time sink for those who get addicted to it, of that I have no doubt. DDO seems like a much more fitting game for our crowd.
Couple things. 1.They make a
Couple things.
1.They make a shit load of money on all the advertising crammed into every inch of screen real estate. No such thing as enough for a business but still. Calling something a open beta then restricting it not to just to site members but only to paying members is simple rude.
2. Your not paying to preview a game, your paying to to be a 'tester' for a game that is unreleased, which saves EA a whole lot of cash. Not really a good deal for you the tester and that sticks in my craw big time. (course I know 'you' personally just wanted a sneak peak but I object fundamentally to the corruption of testing in this fashion)
Slow is bad, slowing game mechanics down to the lowest common denominator can react is pretty silly. Ah well I was not super excited about WAR anyway. though the city seiging sounded interesting.
I'll wait. If the
I'll wait. If the playtesters are raving about it after 30 days I'll... give it another 30 days, then wait for release. Of course, like Rick, I've been known to crumble before (c.f. Age of Conan.)
Your dime, pay or play as
Your dime, pay or play as you see fit. If they aren't making a few bucks, how does a company stay in business? I don't begrudge them a modest fee for a chance to preview a game I might like
That being said, in this case, SAVE YOUR MONEY!
There is one word that seems to sum up my perception of everything about WAR and that word is SLOW!!! Everything about the game is slow... movement is slow, casting is slow, attacking is slow, conversations are slow... I was fantasizing about razor blades after playing for five minutes. They have removed WoW's universal cool down and made most abilities very slow to activate. I understand the reason this is the case. This is a game with heavy PvP and they want players to have time to react in combat. However, casters can't cast and move at the same time and walking backward you bloody well move at a snail's pace. No, the snail would cross the finish line ahead of you. Kiting is impossible, you stand there and spam one button until the cute little dark sprite dies.
Visually the game is reminiscent of WoW, but prettier, darker, and a bit less stylized. The interface looks as good or better than WoW's, a real plus. The little bit I investigated various classes intrigued me, as they all seem to have some interesting mechanics. But the bottom line is, I was bored to death. It was like starting WoW all over again, with my memory of where to go and how to quickly escape the drudgery of starting out erased. I hated it, frankly.
The game may be quite good. It seemed very polished and there was no lag or bugs in the few minutes I played. If somebody else wants to invest more time in it, I'll be curious to hear another opinion. In the meantime, I need to log into DDO right now and cast a Haste spell....
Pretty much, but that is
Pretty much, but that is file planet for you in a nut shell.
So ..
So they're not actually having an open beta?
Just a closed pay-for-beta that they're calling "open"?
Nope, I refuse to pay to
Nope, I refuse to pay to test somebodies product and I don't find that file planet has a lot of value in of it's self. I was also really disappointed that EA decided to conduct the 'open beta' in this way. Only allowing paying subscribers is hardly open. Six months from now when they offer the free trial and the game is done being baked in the oven I will be happy to check it out if I am still hearing good things.