EDIT: The PDF of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rules will be available 8/13 for $9.99 here. Not a bad way to go since shortages of the initial rule book have Amazon already pushing out orders.
Free Pathfinder RPG PDF Rules "purchase".
Nick's comments on the Pathfinder RPG intrigued me, so I went to take a look. The folks at Paizo make the Pathfinder Adventure modules, which are simply excellent source material for any D&D adventure. The quality in those publications is high enough that I feel compelled to check out their RPG, despite the fact that I am pretty much ready to cast 3.5 aside. Currently you can download a PDF of the rules for free, with the caveat that these are beta rules and still under development. Expect change.
My initial take is that this effort is much like Monte Cook's excellent Arcana Evolved rule set, but with a purposely much more traditional and generic D&D world attached to it. Basically, it sets out to write PHB 4.0 the way most of the 3.5 fans wanted it, fixing the minor broken items in 3.5, but leaving most of the rules intact.
I am not a fan of 3.5 (though I think it's better than earlier versions.) IMO, D&D's only real strength, and it's a big one, is the great selection of spells, magic items, and monsters that are simply much better than those offered in other RPGs. Classes are decent, but lack customizability. The skill system is badly thought out and poorly implemented. A bad after thought. Still, better then what came before. Combat is static, lacks cinematic drama, is too deadly at low level, and makes the threat of a single attack (i.e. an archer holding an arrow on your chest) essentially nil. Still, it's good enough to be fun, and the multi-classing and Prestige Class rules make for some real customizability mostly absent in the base classes.
Pathfinder does not profess to fix most of these weaknesses. Rather it builds on the system's strengths and replaces a few broken mechanics, while streamlining many subtle mechanisms that led to odd behaviors like multi-classing for x levels of a class, than abandoning it after getting the most worthwhile abilities.
I'll post my thoughts on various attempts below as I go through the rules.
Ariande Bard 20 • Nightfall Ranger 19
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Iron Kingdoms
I'm working a document to make the Iron Kingdoms material from Privateer Press compatible with the revved up Pathfinder. Probably the most challenging aspect of this is that some of the Sorcerer bloodlines just won't exist in the IK and that cleric domains can be very different.
Saying "Players who
Saying "Players who primarily prefer to play 1st edition psionic Rangers in D&D RARELY want to discuss balance" would have been self incriminating.
Ariande Stormrider, 15th Bard, Argonessen
Nightfall, 9th Ranger, Argonessen
Too cheap
If I can find the article for free I'll give it a look, Nick, thanks.
Predictable
Knew a dig would be forthcoming. For the record, my main character has never been a caster in any table top game I've ever played.
My psionic Ranger was completely balanced...
Sounds "new school"
Rick, You might find Monte Cook's article in the latest Kobold Quarterly about "old school" versus "new school" interesting.
I've always had a
I've always had a fascination with systems, but to be honest, I wouldn't use any system at all except for the fact that my players want to "know what will happen when they take a specific action". Really, that's the purpose rules serve. If I'm stuck with a rules system anyway, I like it to be cinematic and non-static. I also like it to reinforce the flavor of my world. D&D and Pathfinder just happen to do the best job of meeting those objectives, at the moment.
As for balance, players who prefer to play arcane casters in D&D RARELY want to discuss balance. ;^)
Ariande Stormrider, 15th Bard, Argonessen
Nightfall, 9th Ranger, Argonessen
Can't help myself
Although I long ago gave up table top gaming, and my bias is well-known to many people, I can't help commenting how disapointing I find it that the genre is so focused on game "systems" and balance. It's a real case, to me, of losing sight of the forest for the trees. My favorite D&D rule set--by far--was 1st edition which was about as balanced as a political convention--of either major party. I know Mike runs a great game, whatever the ruleset, but it's never been because of whatever rules are employed--it's his gifts and dedication as a referee.
I thought the Forgotten Realms campaign materials, Harn, and the excellent Iron Crown modules were some of the best RPG related materials ever to be produced, and they had little to do with their core system. It was about the story, characters, and setting. In the hands of a competent DM, all else is secondary.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion...
I have been considering a
I have been considering a rule almost identical to what you outlined above, in addition to the "forget a spell slot" rule and the spontaneous meta-magic feat rule" I outlined in the other thread.
I think that my thinking may be a bit skewed here. IMO, 3.5 starts to become FUBAR as soon as players get past 10th level. It gets worse as you approach 20th. Consequently, most of my refereeing and playing has been sub-13th level. As you get higher though, the extra spell slots of the Sorcerer start to get outweighed by the greater flexibility of the Wizard. Higher level campaigns tend to ignore "nuisance" fights and you rarely get more than one big battle per day, which makes the Sorcerer's magical stamina less critical than the Wizard's access to higher level spells and their access to greater variety. Also, access to spells tends to be pretty restricted in my games, so Wizards don't hit their stride as quickly as they might in other games.
All this leads to my view of Wizards being weaker, while many others believe they're stronger than Sorcerers. Almost everyone agrees that arcane casters are much stronger than everyone else at high level in D&D. Pathfinder tried to rectify this to some extent by buffing all the other classes more than they did the Wizards. They're Sorcerer buffs are most dominating at low levels, so that fits with bringing the arcanes a bit more in-line with melees as well.
From my perspective, that misalignment between arcane casters power vs. other classes is an inherent flaw in 3.5, and while Pathfinder struggles vainly to correct it, it's still endemic to the system. I'm not a fan of how they've made the gap between Sorcerer and Wizard greater at low level, so I plan to fix that while avoiding giving Wizards much, if any, love at high levels.
I'm also very tempted to give Wizards a Familiar AND the Bonded Item, rather than making them choose.
If I do run a high level Pathfinder campaign, I'll deal with the endemic arcane bias at high level like I always have... through the availability of magical defenses and spell like abilities in items and inherent powers that non-arcanes can gain access to.
Ariande Stormrider, 15th Bard, Argonessen
Nightfall, 9th Ranger, Argonessen
prepared spells always had problems
I always hated the Metamagic level increasing rules in the first place, and the "Cast a prepared spell and you forget it part". I've house-ruled those for quite some time, just now figuring out how to tweak them for Pathfinder.
The prepared spells rule really takes away all the coolness of wizards, imo (not as bad for clerics with spontaneous healing, but they benefit from my house rule too). Basic houserule here was simple. Prepare spells according to your spells per day number. You don't forget a spell until you prepare another spell in its place. So, if you have 3 first-level spells per day and you've memorized Magic Missile, Mage Armor, and Light, then you cast three Magic Missiles, or three Light, or two of some spell and one of another, or one of each. You still can't cast as many per day as a sorceror or have as many immediately at hand as a sorceror, but you gain back a little flexibility.
I'll post up our metamagic on the fly rules after I've re-written them. We've managed to find ways to break them in the past couple of years, and quick-fixed those, but they just need a rewrite at this point.
Some Warts - Prepared Spells
After more extensive review of spells and casters, I will definitely make a change to prepared spells. Currently, the spontaneous casters are somewhat overpowered compared to those who have to prepare their spells. Sorcerers, in particular, have too much of an advantage over Wizards, IMO. In addition, having to memorize spells with metamagic feats attached ahead of time is prohibitive, and makes those feats essentially a Sorcerer only item. Also, I can't envision ever taking a familiar over a focus item as a Wizard, as things stand currently.
I'll have to give this some consideration before making a move.
Ariande Stormrider, 15th Bard, Argonessen
Nightfall, 9th Ranger, Argonessen
Thanks for the feedback. I
Thanks for the feedback. I just looked at the official page, and watched the preview video (http://paizo.com/store/downloads/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/v5748btpy88yj). Now I'm thinking I may cancel my Amazon order if I can find one at a semi-local gamestore, and be sure I can get my hands on it sooner.
Initial Core Rules Review
After an hour or so of reading at lunch, the classes and base rules have undergone little change since beta. The work on Cleric Domains and Wizard Schools is well thought out and a strength. Minor tweaks have made all the classes better than in beta.
Fighters are much better, with class features automatically adding to their base bonuses allowing them to spend feats on customizing their style of fighting. Paladins are much better, with some really well thought out uses for the "Lay on Hands" ability as well as an elegant Channel Energy implementation. Rangers got some minor tweaks, but are little changed. Druids are dramatically changed and very cool, specializing in casting or animal companions, but I can't judge them until I see one played. Monks have been streamlined somewhat, but are more the same as in 3.5 than different.
Sorcerers are now tied to one type of energy by blood and are very cool. Wizard Schools are more like Cleric Domains, with multiple special abilities in addition to being able to memorize an extra spell from the specialty School at each spell level. Generalist Wizards also have a School, the Universalist School, and get their own specials as well as not having to choose two opposition schools. In addition, they MUST choose to have a familiar or a bonded item, and the rules for these are very well thought out. A Wizards bonded item allows them to cast one spell they know, whether or not it's prepared, once per day. This really builds on the Wizard's strength, which is flexibility.
I would call the minor modification to races a step backward (toward 3.5.) With all the time they've had since beta, one would think that spells and magic items must have been heavily tweaked, but I can see no sign of that in the spell listings. The long read of each spell and magic item comes next, but it will probably be awhile before I can grok the changes, assuming there are some beyond the excellent work they did on Polymorph spells previously.
Overall, I give it two thumbs up, so far, but I really wonder why it took them so long to go from beta to final. I'm expecting a TON of changes to the spells and items.
Ariande Stormrider, 15th Bard, Argonessen
Nightfall, 9th Ranger, Argonessen
I picked up my copy this
I picked up my copy this morning at Game-Alot. The book is just as huge and well put together as I imagined, a real bargain for $50 compared to the D&D books.
So far, it looks like they dropped the added HP for race at first level, an unfortunate decision, and streamlined several class features further. I'm looking forward to delving into things and will report back here as I make discoveries as to what has changed.
The first big change I noted is the channel energy ability for Clerics. They now must choose to channel either positive or negative energy (based on their deity) which heals living/undead and damages the opposite in a 30' burst. That means a cleric can use it to heal their whole party or damage all undead in range (not both), for 1d6 at 1st level and +1d6/2 lvls thereafter. You get CHA mod+3 uses per day, so that greatly increases healing and gives a base usage for channel energy when no undead are around. Very cool.
The Bard also sports all kinds of cool changes, but Legend Lore is still gone. They are skill mongers with decent support and enchantment spells backed up by somewhat enhanced song options. Much better than 3.5.
Ariande Stormrider, 15th Bard, Argonessen
Nightfall, 9th Ranger, Argonessen
Mine's showing August 21 on
Mine's showing August 21 on Amazon.
Ariande Stormrider, 15th Bard, Argonessen
Nightfall, 9th Ranger, Argonessen
First print run has
First print run has reportedly sold out via pre-orders. I've got a pre-order with Amazon, but their estimated ship date is 24 August. That apparent delay is enough to make me wonder if I'll get one at all.
We've really liked running our Iron Kingdoms game under the alpha and beta versions of the rules. The final version will require some new tweaking, but I plan to keep using it.
Pathfinder
While not official yet, Bear has said he wanted to use Pathfinder once it is published. Chris and Jean-Luc are also considering it for their fanatasy games.
Release Date
The Pathfinder Core Rulebook, all 576 pages of it, will FINALLY be released on August 13. A PDF of the rulebook will also be released at that time and can be purchased for $9.99 at the Paizo site. The rulebook looks gorgeous. I may have to buy it despite having no one to play the damn game with.
Ariande Stormrider, 15th Bard, Argonessen
Nightfall, 9th Ranger, Argonessen
Well analyzed, Mike. I'm
Well analyzed, Mike. I'm running the Alpha ruleset (just because we haven't all had time to read the beta) for my Iron Kingdoms game. The system works better. So much so, that I've made some cuts to my house rules packet. The new Domain rules are problematic if you have domains from other sources you might want to use, and because they cut the Cleric's spell progression down to accomodate the new domain rules. We're not using that at the moment. One of the best things they've done is simplify the Turn Undead process, and add healing to it as well. This change is pure excellence.
Final Thoughts
This work already rivals Monte Cook's excellent Arcana Evolved product. The class and race enhancements are very nice, the skill streamlining helps out a weak system, and the subtle combat changes are welcome. I wish they'd look closely at what Cook did with the spell slot system for AE and drop prepared spells altogether, but that would be a radical departure. Overall, the book is just more complete and better than the PHB, and I'd recommend it wholeheartedly as a replacement to anyone running or playing in a new or existing 3.5 campaign.
Spells, Magic Items, Et. Al.
For the most part, spells, casting, and magic items remain unchanged. As with everything else, much of what was already there has been rewritten and clarified. There are far too many spells and items for me to peruse them all, and I won't try here. A few things that have changed or been clarified:
Overall, there is little change. This is D&D 1.X-3.X's best feature and it remains basically unchanged. IMO, it would be good for Paizo to address some of the shortcomings 4th Ed. went after, such as casters having so few spells at low levels that they end up sitting and watching most of the time, but such radical change is not what Paizo's target audience wants, and thus we're stuck with the limitations of D&D.
Combat
Mostly unchanged, but far better written and organized. In addition, they've replaced most of the various special combat actions with Combat Maneuvers, and added the concept of Combat Maneuver Bonus. Different types of things you can do with CMB include Grapple, Trip, Disarm, et. al. The system is elegant and flexible, reminiscent of the Maneuver Table from Rolemaster.
Another nice addition is the ability to use a Standard Action to assist an adjacent ally, adding two to their AC or To Hit vs. a specific opponent. Identical to the old skill assist rule in execution, this is a logical extension.
Equipment
Weapons and Armor remain largely unchanged. I am a bit disappointed that they didn't correct some of the weapons and armor inequities (especially the uselessness of non-magical shields), but overall this portion of D&D is relatively balanced, so it's not a huge issue.
Feats
While there are some nice new feats, they're nothing earth shaking and the base system is the same. In general, it's a good system for adding flexibility, uniqueness, and color to a character. The Meta-Magic feats are another matter, however. For any class that prepares their spells they're almost useless. This is really more of an issue with the spell preparation system than it is with the feats themselves, but DDO showed how cool these feats can be with a more free form spell system, and the incarnation here, at least for Wizard's and Clerics, is sadly lacking. I'll talk about Spells later, but some form of the excellent spell "slot" based system used in Arcana Evolved greatly improves 3.5 on all fronts, and makes Meta-Magic feats a critical part of the game.
Skills
Overall, the skill system is streamlined and improved. Some overly specific skills have been combined into other skills (i.e. Spot, Search, Listen into Perceptions, Move Silently and Hide into Stealth, Forger and Decipher Script into Linguistics, et. al.) Class skills now give a +3 bonus instead of letting you buy extra ranks. Max ranks for all skills is now equal to the number of hit dice (level) and CC skills no longer cost double. All good changes. Prestige Class pre-req rank levels have been adjusted accordingly. All well done.
In general, the skill system is still fairly rudimentary, but it's better. There are still too many highly specialized skills (i.e. Fly, Intimidate, et. al.) There are some very nice enhancements to crafting and knowledge skills which make those skills more usable in all ways. The rules describing use and adjudication of all skills has been significantly and effectively expanded, which is welcome. None of this really overcomes the core D&D skill weakness, whereby the variability of the d20 swamps all but the highest skill bonuses, making all outcomes dicey at best. Pathfinder does their best, but in the immortal words of Jackie Gleason, "You can't polish a turd."
Classes
Overall, Pathfinder adds to class abilities, or breaks larger abilities (usually gained at low level) into pools of abilities from which the player can choose. This increases customizability, spreads the powers of the class more evenly over levels, and makes a pure class more competitive with clever multi-class and prestige class combinations. My review, a bit more than cursory, indicates thia has been done very successfully. Much like reading the classes in Arcana Evolved, I come away from each one thinking it would be a great class to play. In general, each of the classess is more of what they're designed to be. This is the best part of the Pathfinder rules so far. All of the classes are detailed to 20th level, so I've no idea how Pathfinder will deal with Epic level content.
Barbarians now get a Rage Point Pool that increases as they add Barb levels. They also get to choose various Rage powers as they level. It costs 1 Rage Point to enter Rage, and more points to use Rage Powers. Very elegant. The Rage Powers are quite compelling and make the class even more distinct from other fighter types.
Rangers get d10 hit dice and are otherwise very much as they were, but with new powers relating to Terrain and Tracking specializations.
Bards get d8 hit dice and add many more different uses for their songs and resistance to other Bards' songs. The biggest change is the conversion of Bardic Lore to use the other knowledge skills in the game, and giving Bards a parge number of free ranks and special abilities with regard to knowledge skills. I like the idea, though I'm not sure how I feel about taking away the all pervasive legend lore nature of the 3.5 ability.
Monks have d8 hit dice and a Ki pool for use of many abilities.
Druids can now choose to be casting specialists (gain an extra nature related domain and domain power) OR have an animal companion. The companion system is very well detailed and well though out, making this a tough choice.
Clerics are now able to cast Orisons (Cleric cantrips) at will, which is fairly cool. "Turns" have been replaced with Channel Energy, which can be used for various things, including Turn Undead, based on the Cleric's deity. Domain powers and bonus spells come at various levels throughout the Cleric's career. Most of these changes are reflected in some way in every 3.5 game I've played. They're just cannon in Pathfinder.
Fighters now get specialization in Weapon Groups every few levels. They start at +1/+1 and get more powerful as new Weapon Groups are learned, so that when you learn your 3rd Weapon Group, the first is at +3/+3 and the second is at +2/+2. In addition, Fighters get a bonus to AC and a reduction in Dex penalty from armor that improves as they level. These are welcome additions, IMO.
Paladins must choose a Paladin's Warhorse (now detailed much like the Druid's Animal Companion), or the ability to make their primary weapon a "holy" weapon, with numerous magical abilities that increase with Paladin level. Their Lay On Hands ability can now be used for various more potent healing at higher levels, and they gain and give their companions stronger protections against fear and enchantments.
Rogues get d8 hit dice and add Rogue Talents, which are learned every other level and essentially extend the old Rogue selected abilities (Crippling Strike, Slippery Mind, et. al.) down to 2nd level, giving the class many more customization options. Some of the cool things that have been added include Minor Magic (cantrips), Resiliency (temp hit points), et. al. The old, more powerful abilities have been renamed Advanced Talents and more have been added. Also, Sneak Attack now works versus all opponents who are not specifically immune (huzzah!)
Sorcerers now have d6 hit dice and a Bloodline ability that represents the innate source of the Sorcer's power and manifests as special feats, bonus spells, and special abilities that can be selected every few levels. Examples are Abberrant, Abyssal, Celestial, et. al. Sorcerers do not use material components, and thus get the Eschew Materials feat for free. Very cool.
Wizards also get d6 hit dice, must choose an Arcane Bond with a object (i.e. a staff) or a familliar. Bonded Objects/Familiars are needed to cast spells (DC20+ Spell Level) Spell Craft check to cast without it, But allow the Wizard to cast any one spell they know once per day. Familiars are more vulnerable in general, but give the Wizard the customary bonuses and can scout.
Races & Hit Points
The races are subtly redefined, with each having two favored classes to choose from at first level, and each having a net +2 to stat bonus. Half Elves and Humans seem much more balanced with the other races. The abilities are just slightly enhanced to be deeper and more interesting. All races treat race named weapons (i.e. Dwarven Axe) as Martial Weapons.
Gnomes are much better described, and in a way that makes them a compelling choice foe some characters. Half Orcs have a unique advantage in the ability to fight for a round after hitting 0 hit points, which I like. Elves get a bonus to spell penetration. Lot's of added flavor with relatively minor changes. Very well done.
Paizo is struggling with how to alter 1st level hit points. They have a range of options they're considering, but IMO the best is a direct steal from 4th edition where you get X hit points for your class, as per normal, and then an additional number based on your race (i.e. 4 for a halfling, gnome, or elf, 6 for a human or half elf, 8 for a dwarf or half-orc.) Hopefully they'll go that way as it adds another level to racial balance and distinction while reducing the randomness of first level death in combat. Of course, they might need to up the HP of everything else, then...