Use this thread to post your thoughts on 4th edition D&D.
A kind WotC fairy (I never would have believed there was such a thing) came into my house late last night and stealthily left a set of the three new D&D rulebooks. They're really slick looking, the prose is well written, and most of the actual rules are compacted into a small section of the book, with powers and abilities making up much of the rest, each breaking those rules in small or large fashion. The artwork is excellent. Binding quality appears to be solid as well, though time will tell. Overall, I give the presentation a 9/10.
As for content, I've previously given my thoughts on the changes they're making to the rules. Overall, the rules changes are a positive, IMO, and if they'd just made those changes and adapted the existing classes to the new rules, they'd have had a definite winner. Instead, they gambled and completely revamped the characters, monsters, and treasures to refocus the game on a tactical combat model where every PC and monster has at least one defined role, in this case Leader (Cleric, Warlord, Paladin), Controller (Wizard, Warlock, Rogue), Striker (Rogue, Ranger, Warlock), Defender (Fighter, Paladin, Warlord.) There is a definite MMO feel to these changes, wich will make the game much more accessible to MMO players, probably a good move from a longevity standpoint, but I wonder how it will impact the strategic feel of D&D which many of us really prefer.
They've definitely set things up to have LOTS of additional content, both on-line and in supplemental rulebooks. Classes are mostly a list of "At Will" (once per round), "Encounter" (once per combat), and "Daily" (once per day), abilities that can be selected for your character as you go up levels. Much like the specialization trees in many MMOs, these lists have level requirements and prerequisites that mean you can specialize deeply or dip shallowly into each tree. Currently, these lists are rather short and oddly specific for such a short list of abilities. Most classes have 2-3 "builds" that are intended for the abilities offered. Expect an endless array of new abilities and new build options to come in the near future. I expect these will take the place of the prestige classes. Character classes that have already been announced for future supplements are: Druid, Bard, Barbarian, Psionicist, and Monk. Overall, I find the lists for existing classes sufficient, if a bit odd in what is included and what is left out.
Wizards and Warlocks have very different abilities, wth Warlocks focused and damage and hexes while Wizards are closer to generalists. As a rule, I find the offerings of "Utility" spells, those that are not primarily combat effects, to be overly sparse and the selection of spells too small. Again, I expect that this is by design to create a rich market for the on-line content of the new Dragon/Dungeon webzine, as well as future rulebooks. In general, mages will send less time waiting around conserving mana and more time kicking ass, but it's not clear to me if they'll be able to capture the satisfaction of having just the right spell prepared to save the day when all seems lost.
Level has been revised a bit. Think of most first level characters as old D&D 2nd or 3rd levels, with the difference from level to level diminishing, 30th level being the new 20th level, and some non-linear umps in power at 11th and 21st, where characters are supposed to graduate from tackling local issue, to kingdom/country level issues, and finally to world and plane threatening issues
There seem to be some discrepancies in the rules as well. The Ranger class description expounds on their tracking abilities, but I can find nothing in the PHB on how that ability is handled or what makes Rangers better at it than other classes. On a first scan, I could not find Raise Dead or Resurrect like abilities in the Cleric powers list, though they're mentioned for level 10-20 play.
Understand that this all comes from 2 hours of scanning the PHB last night when I should have been sleeping, so take what I say with a grain of salt. As I suspected, it will take months of playing before I'll have a real grasp on the quality of this update. My Monte Cook Arcana Evolved rulebooks will retain their d20 supremacy in my mind until then, at least.
Ariande Bard 20 • Nightfall Ranger 19
The Avatars, Argonessen Server
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The Play's the Thing
In my ongoing campaign a few weeks ago we had a battle that finally had me seeing the forest for the trees. The group ran across a Gelatinous Cube in the sewers of an ancient Minotaur city. The cube itself was a cool enough creature, but it had devoured three thieves who were fixated on pursuing a treasure map scribed onto a tablet. Their Wraiths were doomed to pursue the tablet, contained at the center of the cube, endlessly.
It was a great fight, showcasing many of 4th edition's strengths, and forcing the players to make many decisions on what abilities to use when as they tried to aid members who were in trouble while keeping the wraiths from doing too much damage. On-going damage, insubstantial, weakened, stunned, dazed, and immobilized are all relatively simple conditions that creatures or players may have or which they may acquire temporarily that impact their ability to fight. We're just now getting to the point where most of the terms are second nature, and it starts to feel more like a fight than a collection of arcane rules. The proper amount of fear and loathing is starting to be attached to each rule, and in turn that allows much deeper immersion in the action.
Overall, I really like 4th edition combat. I'm less certain about the character building though and really want to see some higher level 4th ed. characters in action. Giving up the familiar spells and items from 3.5 was a huge step, and with Pathfinder retaining all that it remains to be seen which trade-off is ultimately better. D&D's balanced and brilliantly scaling system, with tools that make running the game far easier than 3.5 ever was, or Pathfinder's excellent adjustments to a 3.5 system we're all familiar with. Tough choice.
Ariande Stormrider, 15th Bard, Argonessen
Nightfall, 9th Ranger, Argonessen
DDI Dev Support
The DDI devs have found a fix to the Vista 64 issues and have posted a new version incorporating it. Appears to correct the issues fully. Given the high level of communication and fast turn on this fix (note that the app is in early beta), I'm very encouraged. This bodes well for the Character Visualizer and Gametable apps.
Character Builder Beta
In a word, excellent. They have a few rough edges to iron out (text getting truncated, no option for languages, et. al.), but the overall tool is extremely well designed and works great on Vista 32. Does not work at all on Vista 64 (yet). The biggest flaw is that you can only print your character sheet from the tool directly, no output to PDF, meaning I can't really share a finished CS with you all. The CS allows either the Portrait or the Landscape version of the CS and prints our power cards with your character's bonuses figured in or with those sections blank.
It took me less than 10 min. to make an Eladrin Warlord, including taking the time to review the powers, skills, and feats I was taking.
Character Builder Beta - 11/10
The character builder beta starts next week for D&D Insider subscribers. Beta will include levels 1-3 only, so we're probably stuck with that until Feb 09 or so. Note that when the beta ends, the cost for DDI will go up, but those who are already subscribed will keep their current rate for the length of their subscription. Right now it's $5 per month if you sign up for a year. A very good deal, IMO, just for the Dragon and Dungeon webzines.
The Dragon's Ampersand column this month has a preview of the Bard class, and the issue also has rules for Minotaurs as a player character race. So far, the Dungeon adventures have been fairly solid as well.
EDIT: The beta is available for download to subscribers now. So far, it doesn't work on Vista 64, however. Trying on my MacBook bootcamp Vista 32 installation.
Character Builder Beta
The Dungeons & Dragons Character Builder will be released in beta form in 1-2 weeks for DDI (Dungeons & Dragons Insider) subscribers. A preview has been posted here. This is the technical tool used to build and print out character sheets and sounds excellent, with the single annoyance that it is NOT a web based application and it will only run on windows. This tool is a real must, IMO. The beta is restricted to Lvls 1-3, and the general public will be able to try the beta not long after DDI subscribers get access.
The Barbarian
It seems that DDI will also include playtest material for new classes and rules from upcoming books, like the Players Handbook II. This month, they released the Barbarian, which is a very cool high hit point Striker class. I'll need to see one in action, but I love the flavor of the special abilities. Currently, they only include the options for the Blood Rage Barbarian, who is a Striker first and a Defender second. He has abilities that bump his hit points as he downs foes and is generally tougher. In final form, there is alleged to be a version with Leader as their secondary ability. Should be interesting.
You can download this here, for the moment. Once DDI goes retail, you'll need to be a subscriber or the link won't work.
Barbarian Playtest
I really like the Swift Charge ability that lets a Barbarian charge another foe as soon as they down one their engaged with. These guys really whip out the damage, with their routine At-Will abilities getting an extra d6 damage with no restrictions.
DDI Goes Retail This Month
The D&D Insider will go retail this month and initially will only include the Compendium, the Dragon and Dungeon Webzines, and the Bonus Tools (an Encounter Builder and an ability generator. Soon to include a Monster Builder.) It seems that paid subscribers will automatically be allowed into the closed beta for the Character Builder Tool, which will be restricted to Lvls 1-3. Cost is $5 per month if you pay for 12 months in advance, up to $9 per month on a monthly basis.
Overall, the content from Dragon and Dungeon has been excellent, and I consider $5 a month to be more than fair. I only wonder if the cost will increase once the Game Table, Character Builder, and Character Visualizer are added.
Long term damage
Oh yeah, I had meant to comment on the damage system, and the lack of long term effects of damage. Not that previous versions of DnD really dealt with this either. Again the current rules in this area strike me as MMO based. As long as you don't die, than everything is healed up shortly after the encounter.
Perhaps this bothers me because we have been playing HARP with bleeding and organ damage. But it is getting late, so this is just a place holder until I can write this up in more detail.
PS: Also I just reread the first three book in John Carter of Mars for the first time in years (thanks to project Guttenberg and my phone), Yes, they were written at the dawn of the 20th century and the technology predictions are pretty funny. But they are still a pretty darn good read, even with the (genera required?) wild coincidences. I noticed the fighting tatics (ranging from 1-on-1 all the way to fleet battles) were quite reasonable too, even after becoming accustomed to Weber, etc. That is if you can explain why they constantly used swords instead of things like the radium shelled rifles that were accurate to 300 kilometers
The reason I bring this up, is that several times in each book ERB feels compelled to mention the "miracoulous Martian healing salves". There are even some scenes where they don't have access to the healing salves, and they have to make do with what recovery nature provides.
My first impressions
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Got the PH a couple weeks ago, but it has been slow as I've busy recently. Now with 2 or 3 hours of reading, I started to at least see enough to form some opinions. Then I went here and found this thread (figured there would be one). I don't think my comments are radically different, but enough differences to make it worth posting
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I definitely noticed the MMO influence, particularly in the area of healing surges. The idea of being able to regain 1/4 of your hit points 6-12 times a day (and 1 or possibly more times during an encounter) changes dungoneering considerably. Really needed for my stereotypical view of MMO, but probably net positive for tabletop too. The game mechanism of "per encounter" is a nice limiting concept that I don't recall seeing before, and I suspect it will work particularly well for healing surges.
Still on the healing, I wonder how this effects monster encounters. I guess a big factor is how many healing surges the monster gets per encounter. For a big singleton type, it probably ends up just working as additional HP. But given numerous small monsters (like the Kobold battle described earlier) it could provide quite an advantage (particularly if they have the ability to shift or share healing surges - have not read the MM so I don't know if this happens or not).
On the overall game I was trying to figure out if it was more complicated or not. Certainly the classes are more flexible, with numerous character building options. Like Michael J, I see lots of opportunity for expansion and there are some odd patterns in what they did include here. I also agree that it is apparent that location and movement tactics are even more important than they have been in the past. The Kobold encounter sounded like a good way to illustrate that. I have not really looked much into the spell casters class abilities, so I’m going to have to reserve judgment in that area.
On the simplifying side I think there is some nice rule compaction, for example the concept of "combat advantage". They take what had been a wide variety of special circumstances (flanking, prone, etc.) and give clear definitions of the effects, including the common concept of combat advantage (which give a +2 to hit, and amongst other things triggers the Rogue backstab ability). This is a place where I think the MMO (or should I say computer programmer approach to game design) helps out in both design and documentation. I always had a complaint with 3 and 3.5 that I often had to search in obscure places for effects (for example to find the differences between dazed and stunned).
There are a few things that initially don’t seem right, or strike me as odd. For example full defensive fighting is only worth a +2 AC bonus – what’s up with that? Why does running only add +2 to movement (when is it worth granting combat advantage to opponents just so you can move 33% farther than walking)? At first glance the cure light wounds equivalent potion seems pretty useless – it just cures 10 HP (and costs a healing surge) compared to a healing surge that gives back 25% of total HP. Upon reflection I guess its main purpose is granting an extra healing surge in encounter situations.
Also many of the comments in italics (many of them world specific) just seemed a bit off to me. Smacked more of MMO balancing than a world that follows real economics. They spent a lot of time trying to discourage characters from selling items, with pithy suggestions as to why no one would want to buy new or used stuff from them (for example ruling that used gear sells for 20% of list). They claim rituals (equivalent of spells) and ritual scrolls (like scrolls in the older game, but slower) have no resale value, but then give prices the PC can pay. I also notice things like the raise dead ritual requires more money the higher level the target is (logarithmically increasing). While these things make sense for MMO, it offends my sense of fantasy world reality <!--[if gte vml 1]>
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D&D virtual
A hah, I though it sounded kind of familiar. It was presented to me as a new thing. Now that I know it's not it falls into place.
Gamers with jobs where speaking vary highly of fantasy grounds 2 as a tool for running games. I'm checking it out now it dose look interesting and supports different rules sets (including 4th)
http://www.fantasygrounds.com/
Adrian & Mac Ran It
Adrian and Mac both ran Harnmaster about 25 years ago. I have never been impressed with the system and disdained it in favor of Rolemaster, but it's playable. I'd have sworn you were a player in one or both of those campaigns.
A couple folks
A couple folks sugested
Harn
to me as a alternative to D7D 4th. I don't know much about it though.
resources
Some character sheet and other resources.
http://www.dragonavenue.com/dnd/resources/
an ecel sheet that look pretty (I havn't tried it out yet though)
http://dnd4.com/dd-4th-edition-character-sheet
Playing the Game
I ran a second session of the first module, H1-Keep on the Shadowfell. The PCs made it to town, scouted about a bit, took a commission from the Lord of Winterfell to investigate some burgeoning Kobold activity, and proceeded to hunt down the creatures. Unfortunately, they were ambushed by that group seeking revenge for their companions killed by the PCs in session 1. Two of the five PCs perished and the Dragon Priest leading the Kobold group got away.
The fight was excellent, despite some attrocious rolling by the PCs early on and at the end that resulted in the fatalities. Kobolds have an ability to "shift" once square as a free action each round and they use that to try and flank or surround weaker party members. The priest had the ability to buff hit point and allow further shifting. The PCs were up against one bank of a river, so the movement was restricted but even more important than usual, while the Kobold's ability to shift was restricted by the underbrush that covered much of the bank.
I doubt anyone would have died if not for bad rolling, but the game is still as deadly as ever, something I thought might be mitigated by the higher HP of the PCs. The monsters have higher HP too, and working together and concentrating fire wherever possible is even more important than before.
Mel is convinced that mages are too fragile, but they are less so than in the past, IMO, although the lack of a Shield or Mage Armor option at first level makes protecting them still a major tactical imperative.
So far, so good.
just showed up
My Amazon preorder of 4th addition jsut showed up. So far I have not had a chance to do more then crack the covers and check ou tthe layout. They are indeed good looking books :)
The Play's the Thing
After having played a bit, I really like the flow of combat. Finally, a combat system where the melee MOVES, and the moves and terrain make a difference to the outcome. I'm a huge fan of the Princess Bride battle between Inigo and Wesley... always wanted to see something play out that way in an RPG. Now I can.
Many of the character powers allow the attacker to push, pull, or slide the target a number of squares, not inducing attacks of opportunity but putting them in places that allow comrades to flank them, the break a defensive "wall" of defenders, or to force them to be engaged so that PCs DO get attacks or opportunity when they try to cast a spell or ranged attack. Fighter and Warlords are particularly good at this. Many abilities allow you to move your allies instead, rescuing them from bad positions, swapping places with them, etc.
In addition, casters (especially Wizards) can create "zones" with some of their powers where damage or effects in a square are persistent and force the enemy to suffer the effects or move, if they still can. That part is no different from old D&D, but such abilities now exist even at first level.
Tactically speaking, there is a much richer set of options for each character each turn, and the game has become even more about deciding the best way to utilize your limited pool of abilities to put the enemies down as efficiently as possible. Making a "basic attack" or using an at-will power has replaced doing nothing to conserve resources. Using your move action to shift a square has become much more valuable than in the past, and some monsters (specifically kobolds) have abilities that allow them to shift each turn with their minor action, making a melee with a group of them a constantly moving affair. In that respect, it felt much like a big Water Works kobold melee.
The new "healing surge" system for regaining Hit Points gives characters another way to use their actions, and reduces dependance on healing classes. This seems to work well in a fight, and the daily limit of healing surges insures that the strategic element of managing resources across multiple fights remains a hallmark of D&D.
Cost
The rumored cost for DDI, which includes the Dragon and Dungeon webzines, the Compendium, the Character Builder, Character Visualizer, and D&D Tabletop is $15.00 per month. Too much, IMO. I'd have charged ~$8.00, most likely.
Their goal is to get people who do not have friends in easy proximity or who can't or won't leave the house for various reasons to play D&D on-line as an alternative to MMOs. Makes a LOT of sense. However, for this to happen they need to foster a large on-line community and get the vast majority of it bought into DDI. This is the other reason for all the MMO-like changes and trying to make character level a reasonable estimate of a character's power. It makes's creating adventures for a random sampling of people in a game lobby with characters in an arbitrary level range doable.
I'd say they're gambling that the on-line contingent will be mostly older and have enough money that $15.00 per month is a small inconvenience, while the younger players just getting in are more likely to have the free time and convenient friend to get together and play. A nice theory. IMO, they're getting in their own way with the high price and will drive off many of the kids they could otherwise have snared from WoW.
And how much d you have to
And how much d you have to pay a month for that?
D&D Compendium
The first D&D On-Line tool is up, the D&D Compendium. It's a pretty neat tool for looking up rules, and is supposed to have access to all new rules published in the core rulebooks, new rulebooks, official supplements, and in the Dragon and Dungeon webzines. It seems to work well, even on my Mac, unlike the other tools which will be Windows only.
AND extra for virtual miniature/modules
Lol.
Wow, a monthly strikes me as
Wow, a monthly strikes me as as completely stupid. I though it was going to just be ssoftware package. Feh. I hate this BS I am totaly sick of every compnay in the world thingking they are entiteled to reach for me a wallet every month instead of just selling a thing.
eTools Info
There are STILL no eTools available, but this FAQ from the official WotC boards has a lot of good info.
Being WotC, I'm not at all surprised they're trying to soak their audience as much as possible. I do think the MMO-ness shift conflicts a bit with charging a $15.00 monthly fee AND extra for virtual miniature/modules which only supplement the physical products. The kids they're trying to suck in often struggle to pay for WoW... now they expect them to choose between WoW and D&D? Not quite the brightest move, IMO.
They've also stated that the PDF versions of the books will be an extra cost. Most likely, they'll charge a lot so they can say they're not undercutting the stores, but again this seems likely to drive the behavior of buying only the PDFs and not the physical books.
While I think they made a lot of smart marketing decisions here, they may be undercutting mot of them with overly greedy pricing practices.
Negativity
I can see why people would be negative. It's a huge change and just the MMO-like terminology they adopted offended me. Still, I think most of the changes are either positive, or difficult to gage without actually playing the game for a few weeks, minimum. Unless the person is a play tester then, most of them have no clue what they're talking about.
The comments I've seen around the web mostly appear to be from the latter sort. As I've said before now, I'm generally a referee who prefers little or no system, and D&D is very far from that. 1st and 2nd Ed. were among my least favorite rules sets. 3 and 3.5 were upgrades, but still fell short of Rolemaster, to my mind. Most of the mechanics in 4th ed. are a definite step up. Anyone who argues otherwise is likely clueless. The character powers system and hit point modeling, however, are so different that I have no way to argue better or worse.
interested
I'm talking all this in with great interest. I've heard more negative about this edition than I even heard about 3rd edition. But it's just bits and pieces, and I haven't had the chance to look it over myself yet.
As for the online, I'm interested. The seriousness of that interest won't be gaugable until we know when it will be, and are just a couple weeks out.
I would be interested in
I would be interested in something like this. It has been ages since I played in a tabletop game but I have been kind of missing the experience lately. I'll be watching for the tools to become available.
The Avatars, Argonessen Server
On-Line 4th Ed
When the Game Table, Character Builder, and Character Visualizer become available later this year I am considering running a bi-weekly, 2-3 hour D&D 4th Ed. RPG on-line. Who'd be interested? It would be a max of 5 players. This would be with the intent of testing the tools and the system, but as Rick can tell you, my games are rarely mechanical in any sense.
This would replace one or more of my MMO nights, which I plan to tail off in the near future anyway. As I'm sure is obvious by now, RPGs are vastly more compelling to me than any MMO.
Multi-Classing
There is no more multi-classing in D&D. Instead, multi-class feats have been added that allow a character to gain certain features and abilities of other classes as encounter powers. These are pretty cool, IMO. I never like mutli-classing anyway, but this will doubtless piss off the mystic theurge enthusiast to no end. In truth, there's enough character tailoring ability built into the system to make multi-classing nothing more than a min-maxer tool.
I'm somewhat surprised by the number of changes in this system from the start of beta until now. It seems they really took feedback from their play testers seriously, and acted to crush the most common exploits before release. Upcoming MMOs should take note. Given the vast impact of stats and various powers, compared to the infinitesimal changes brought about by choosing different talents in MMOs, D&D is bound to have many balance issues, but they certainly seem to have made every effort to make a game in which all the character option have a purpose and a major effect on the game.
Trained Skills
In making characters last night, it was discovered that some classes both get a Trained Skill automatically (i.e. Rogues get Stealth and Thievery) AND have these skills listed under their class skills as selectable for the number of trained skills the class is allowed. So the Rogue wondered if she could select Stealth twice, and get the +5 Trained Skill bonus twice.
Predictably, the answer is no. Skills are Trained, or they are not Trained, there is no "Doubly Trained" or "Extra Trained" or "Mondo Trained". Capice?
Tracking
Tracking is covered by the Perception skill, and apparently a late decision was made to not have a Ranger be any better at it than any other class trained in the Perception skill.
At least it's only an oversight in the color text. Likely there will be Ranger specific feats to improve tracking in upcoming supplementary material.
What?
... is somebody talking?
Seriously, I may never play AD&D again, but it's still interesting to read your impressions. Sounds pretty cool.